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Make Bears great again catchup  discussions


2021/05/20 09:37, Slampen: 
Suggestions

-Should be possible for bears to enter and leave Ingrove not using the gate. Today a single darkie can get the key and control the gate
-More hp or absorb
-Let them use rings around the neck/wrist
-Able to be meta all the time. Meta and return only around carrock
-Less randomness in damage when hitting. (Unarmed skill?)
-Be able to switch weapon type. Unarmed and clawing attack. Two different weapon skills with different stat requirements (for example scout turned to bear is more proficient with claws)
-Clawing is less dam faster more wounding.
-Unarmed should be slower/more damage
-Resistance to disease a bear should not get diseases, at least not from the usual sources of diseases in Mume
-More resistance to poison, a more animale solution to remove it, like eating a special herb, since mixing in bearform makes no sense
-Pick lock or a similar ability when meta


Comments?

2021/05/20 09:55, Yzuh:   
Ingrove needs a second gate. It’s not easy getting that gate key. I have escaped on bad hps many times. Luckily no other people were around to finish me off.

2021/05/20 10:00, Enforcer: 
I've never found the gate to be an issue. Plenty of places to run and hide.
My biggest gripe is the meta range. Remove it, it's a bad idea.
Don't need to wear more eq, but some sort of defence/absorb would go a long way to make em more enjoyable. Right now solo exping is 10x worse than Troll.
Like the idea of disease removal.
Actual combat skills would be cool too.

2021/05/20 19:54, Hansel: 
How about Bears can fight on the Anduin with a malus such as less OB if you have 100+ swim%?

Silly to pk around there with a giant safe spot running parallel to the zones.

2021/06/02 08:33, Boner:edited 1x   
@Enforcer: This is not about safe spots for bears, its about not being able to unlock, pick, or bash the only exit out of Ingrove, while random darky camping outside, spam locking the gate. A one way of some sorts that lets you leave Ingrove would be more than enough. Thankfully not many bored darkies that do that, but i did find myself in this situation and only way out was to rent and play something else.
@hansel: Anduin is a joke..turn it into a normal river that never freezes..would be more than enough..

2021/06/02 11:20, Marion:   
I would love to see bears non-bashable.. since they are on 4 legs makes sense and would be a nice twirk

2021/06/02 21:54, Belamir: 
I'm honestly surprised that player Bears didn't get natural absorb when NPC bears did..

2021/06/03 06:51, Mõmmik:   
Ingrove is ok, bears are ok and fun to play, meta range sux big time - Enforcer is right that should be changed! Each time i charge Brolg i hope that meta dosnt wear off. Coz of meta range exp is limited in bear form!

2021/06/03 10:29, Marion:   
Could be some kind of phial thing, when u wear it on neck it extends the meta range, perhaps from RD to Bree

2021/06/04 05:55, Mõmmik:   
I like that Phial thing (somesorta foci), makes a good point for a bear to make focus.

2021/06/04 06:20, Marion:   
Wouldn't it be really cool if bear-form was so neutral that you could group with both white and dark people? :-P but if you loose meta you will get thrown out of the group

2021/06/04 06:59, Hum:   
How about some bear-only focus? (like not going to valinor, but instead some bear only place etc?). I think the Problem with such items is that it would become mandatory to even play your bear character.. and while Legends (and players that know the game), will get it easily, newbies will most likely not. Even if it's considered mandatory to play as a bear.

Maybe creating a quest that you can do at a certain level, that is rather easy to do, that involves exploring some of the nearby areas of carrock (go to noc, talk to/kill X, then go to Emyn and do this etc)?

Yes, it will be boring for players that have done it before.. but it will be possible to do as a newbie (not totally newbie tho!), and it gives them a need to explore 'scary' places.

2021/06/04 16:35, Zintilden:  edited 1x   
Something should make Bears great again. I really miss more pk opportunities and interruptions of groups between DT to VT of one or two Bears arriving and throwing off the typical fights and tactics.

It used to be a scary thing to fight even as a mighty group of Zaugurz at slag for example, to have one single brutal Bear player show up! That exhilarating 'oh shit, wtf..' rush is nice for randomness and quickly turning the tides. I've seen others that normally don't die much suddenly rip this way, experienced it myself as well too many times, and feel Arda needs to make them more desirable to play, to help with a lil balance. They also made good play mates for the solo slag-Troller. Just my 2 cents.

2021/06/06 18:38, Boner: 
Another meta idea, just to throw it in there -> make meta last a fixed amount of time, like healing herblore or dark oath or whatnot, and when it enters its final phase and its about to expire, the bear stats start to slowly reverse to human form stats (warning the bear that he is about to return soon), ending up in the bear returning from meta when they are done decreasing (this could be from 5 to 15 mins for example). Once this happens, bear can regain his meta by going back to Carrock and performing some sort of ritual, or possibly, by using some limited charges (semi)artifact to perform the ritual on the spot. This artifact could possibly affect whole room (encourage bears to group up and organize as a pack).

2021/06/06 20:39, Vurv:   
Make meta abilities subject to character design. The higher INT and WIS (mana total) the more player control entering and leaving BEAR form. More mana means less chance of failure to META and reduced negative effects when changing form and longer duration. This would make it possible to strategically change form during PK and still have MP available to fight. Let your imagination run wild at the possibilities!

Foci phial that restores BEAR's mana to full would be useful here

2021/06/07 05:44, Hum:   
i kinda like your idea boner, except the semi artifact part.. this just sounds like we will have the experienced players hoarding the item, and leaving newbies out of ever getting to try out bearform.

we have to admit it, we're all dicks when it comes to playing with newbies..

2021/06/07 05:50, Phae: 
Oh snap, I like this thread. I am just now seeing it. I love yall's ideas, I play bear a lot. It's my main char, sadly I don't bear form often mainly because of the 0pb0abs. We already have a pb malus and in bear form have 0 pb, so would be nice to have abs like someone else mentioned. A bear phial to keep bear form would be dope or after a certain level getting rid of meta range completely.

2021/06/07 08:06, Boner: 
@Hum: You might be right, and leveling a bear up in bear form is by far the worst experience. I was envisioning an item that is somewhat hard to get alone, but doable by a couple of bears, maybe a zone in wnoc where only bear can enter (like hobbits only in Sqt loot cave), like entrance blocked by sacred stone bear statues or whatnot, that only let bears pass when certain conditions are met. Make it somewhat of a hassle so people don't bother hoard it on characters they do not play. On the other hand simply removing meta range or adding some sort of herblore that enhances it, would be the easy way out, and make it widely available.

2021/06/07 08:28, Hum:   
i guess that can work, but it would require the beorning race to be added as 'for experienced players' atleast. Having it work like dark oath does, should be enough? i'm afraid if someone gets the item, they are not gonna ask or wait for other players to get there before they use it.. it's better to add things that are soloable imo.

... but on the other hand, we would want to encourage people to play together..

2021/06/07 12:32, Enforcer: 
I would prefer phial to remove range penalty, but I would be happy with dark oath too.

2021/06/07 13:13, Boner: 
@Hum: beorning is already listed as for experienced players when you create a new character.

Select a subrace:
Eriadorian common Men
Dúnadan high Men
Rohir horse-friends from Rohan
Beorning* strong and powerful woodsmen
Black Númenórean* servants of Sauron
*: Experienced players

@Slampen: Can you please keep the top list somewhat up to date with what people suggested so far?

2021/07/28 11:12, Isadora:  edited 2x   
I've been pushing boundaries all over the place the past day, level 20-21, only in bear form, and now I have a few questions.

I want to decay my weapon skill and only leave a few in it, dump those others into something to make pk more thrilling, since I'm only planning to play in bear form. I am OK if I die in a sudden 'return' moment and not having real EQ for human form. Does anyone else skip the intensive prac dump into weapon skill if they were only playing in bear form?

Bear form even for a level 20-21 appears very nice for the 'radius' to roam and PK within. Priest<--->Rivendell seem to cause random issues during daytime only. Does it ever force return back to human form at night? So far that has not happened to me at night.

The constant plague and poison from mobs are insane. Thinking realistically about bears in the animal kingdom and I cannot imagine even the smallest bear having so many tiny creatures poison it like this happens on MUME! Is there some lack of resistance or bug to this effect for Bear players?? I'm not about to collect and farm antidotes or anything else for that matter - so come at me poisoner's!

Using a strength ring and timing when it can be used was a setback that could be used for other things. Return/use ring/meta; the timing is critical if you are not near Ingrove - but then then again a strength ring is a luxury - a very nice one though, sure! =)

Curious about weight and what that does when in bear form. Can you go further in bear mode, like Bree and beyond? Does darkness let us go further?! So many questions!?

I expected to have -many- issues from reading through all the discussions on bears & instead it was great fun that had me laughing many times at either myself or the situation because it worked out for me when I did not expect something to.

EDIT: One thing I would like to comment on as far additions to improve bears is quite the opposite of other requests here. I would ask management to consider adding an item similar to how stun pouches operate - but one that would cause a bear player to return instantly to human, be a rare quest item or harder to achieve item, and a one time use for the item. I believe one bear player heavily into PK could attract other bear players (much like the Z-orcs do) and then fear of having to fight so many bears creates an environment where it is -hard- to find anyone who will want a fight with one. I think an item like that would at least break it up some for darkies/renegades, perhaps? At least I think it would add some randomness to it..and excitement (for me =).

2021/07/28 21:11, Tapio:  edited 1x   
Make bears great again - > group with cleric, all bear problems solved. If cleric find bear mobs to charm that are not agg to *bear* its even stronger.
Personally, I have tried to have cleric in vale tower or some other place near noc, and have 3 bears come to get heal, resanc, str, remp, bless and such while fighting around noc. Suddenly, bears are just as dangerous and tough as you want them to be.

2021/08/12 23:35, Ruen: 
What if bears started losing control over themselves after a certain time metamorphed and they become affected by perhaps some effect like black sword where the get some buffs like better armor, or10 ob, but also forced auto hit, on mobs and players and inability to meta back for 30 mins or something. Just an idea

2021/08/13 05:42, Faine: 
To Isadora:

*I left pracs for weaponskill, it helps to keep your warriors skills high, since you benefit mostly from them (bash, endurance). No point to get caster skills (if only cure light).
*Still not sure how staying meta far from Vale works but moon has something to do with it and ofc levels. Moria is another place where you can be in meta quite easy.
*Seems u do resist plaque at higher level better.
*Weight is weight, as bear you wanna be light as possible since it affects your DB (only def) and moves.
*You can go beyond Bree, buts its for a brief time unless you dont return before it. Think i did run sraight from Rivendell to GH but thats it.

2021/08/13 11:19, Isadora:  edited 2x   
Thanks Faine. I'll share my week experience but the post will be all over the place - much like I was as a Bear. Fun experience overall and what I think I enjoyed the most tbh was the peace and quietness - I never had that experience on the puke side. It is usually spammy and annoying.

Too much time was spent to regen, even staying near Noc-Vale-Emyn-DG. Moves seemed ok (imagine that); regen time was tedious in a sense that every fight (or death - and let me tell you there was MANY) took forever to get back into meta to brawl. I only used cure light if I was forced back to human - often I just slept when I was bad or awful in bear meta, but the regen was so very slow. Apparently every time you go idle and void it returns you to human - hm, this doesn't work for me, lol!!! =) Would say I am also extremely impatient when on a hunt or looking for trouble, too reckless and often was low, so needing to regen due to these reasons alone was in part my own fault.

The worst possible times I would suddenly return back to human - like once in mid-fight in the back way of Brolg, while in a fight with Thromonk (possibly spelling it wrong, sorry) and another player. I missed it, thinking I had already color-coded the return message and kept fighting like a moron with only the bear-basics for EQ then in human form for a bit too long. What really was disturbing is the effort it takes to do one thing or another (such as clearing all those mobs out of Brolg so you can have more room to fight as a solo bear), trying to maintain mid-hps to actually fight when something shows up, then it was like a head shot when someone showed up and I got instantly returned - which took me completely out of the fight and I spend another MUME day regening, only to fail meta back until night, but because I knew pk was about I kept trying and kept having to regen, heh! Everything had to be timed perfectly for me to be back out on the battle field during night when I could roam in meta.

I used a cloak, not even gleaming most of the time (was dying way too much all over), pack, knife on belt - minimum weight so perhaps that is why moves were never an issue really unless I was just being stupid and impatient. It was a lot of fun other than the annoying regen to wait to meta or having to wait for night to meta back when you are anywhere near Rivendell - yes this seems to happen each day especially if you are low. I thought darkness would solve this - it does not. I ended up adding color and subs to the moon msg's all over the areas I roamed so I would notice it better to test meta at different times. I did not try Moria though - thanks for that info - that's sweet. I kept returning back to human in the South CA area when it was day & I was low, and then had to go regen near DG because I already killed the bears for xp nearby and found it more time wasting trying to meta back if I just didn't return to Vale and do it there tbh.

I went to NENI as bear, and I think at the time I was 22. Only ever played in bear form since I took it out of retirement at lvl-19, sold all eq, reduced weapon skill to only a few pracs, basically xped to 23 without issues. Stayed around level 22 the week I played it actively from my stupid pk attempts though (or in many cases reckless suicides - which I seemed to do after kills and I grabbed a few trickets - you're welcome to those who got donated to! hehh).

It was a lot of fun - similar to troll brawling as I imagined. Although I received many fights from BN's - they all had some form of charmie and it was usually a lithe - OUCH. They tore through me every time and I probably will never bother with fighting one with a lithe solo again TBH, it was a bit too much. Perhaps I would of done better at some elite level, but that isn't what I made the character for. I could of played better at times as one BN pointed out, but I think I needed to press boundaries to learn from it - and I did.

XP was easy as solo bear (at least at 19-23 and only the eq as mentioned above). Weight that people carry in bear form for when returning to human I think ruins a solo xper bear experience, making it too difficult - someone wise once told me this - ofc I didn't listen, haven't played the other beorning since. On other characters I avoid areas like cave bears etc. Suddenly I was taking advantage of every 'bear' mob location anywhere in my path - that was a different experience and fun as I like to use terrain for advantages, and finding even a few bear mobs chilling was fun - it added to the outskirt DG areas too, made hanging about there rather easy without using Dolion. On another note - I am surprised that darkies do not have the sense to check rubble or the bear nook e of Rivendell when fighting an awful bear and it disappears. This happened a lot and to my great disappointment I sat lonely with those bears waiting for company that never arrived, and I assume they thought I got in Rivendell.

Caravanserai was often used as a stop to regen, but I always do that as a puke, hoping someone enters for a bad/awful me - usually I end up dying this way if they do, but for once found myself utterly alone and without incoming guests. I think this impatience from being low and no one pursuing caused me to recklessly just enter warrens a few times vs too many - hmm another bad habbit of mine though.

Disappointment that soot-bears are aggro to us. Solo bear could use such an ally and it would promote fights in CA, Emyn and DG outskirts for them.

My suggestions if management decided to make bears more desirable without HUGE changes to the race itself:

1. If you are in meta already when the moon disappears and sun rises - the bear stays in that form to be able to fight around warrens/abr/rdell easier. If the player was not in bear form already or fell below a minimum (low) point of hps etc - then tough luck.

2. A new quest for a 21+ bear to get a 'new item' to meta when necessary - even if it was an item with 10 charges or usable once hourly (in fact, use the PBS template so less V+ 'work' is needed, there you go!).

3. Add some cave, with a few bear mobs, whichever are suitable for mountainous terrain between DT-NOC-ZOC. Don't consider it a PK safe place for a bear. Consider it a PK spot instead, because that is what it would do with a few mid-level mobs - promote PK for a bear there.

4. Make the soot-bear non-aggro

5. Add a 2-roomer bear cave in the eastern/upper DG troll forest (erm...don't let those bats go there, ok? =)

6. Reduce the disease rate. I'm guessing this was done to keep casters and others fearful of getting it from hanging with bears and making to strong of a group (other than the RP sense of it being a wild animal that naturally picks up diseases etc.) It is SPAMMY to no end - that alone made me rage. Maybe that annoying message should be added to be blocked in spam mode if a player chooses. It also caused a lot of regen issues and being able to meta when I pleased.

** Edit: It seemed like after I died often I ran to DG for a FGC and other basics, including commandeering a flask (sometimes two, woohoo!) from Kral! =) I feel this is important to pass on to others and they are not hard to get for even a mid-level (the basics/fgc I mean here - not Kral).

2021/08/13 20:43, Fieldy:   
Btw, is Freyja's 'How to roar' guide somewhere still?

2021/08/13 21:31, Dearth:   
Maybe someone could write a detailed guide here for bears please? [submitted link]
For potential ideas: I remember I started my caster bear project in January but didn't finish it.

Idea was to use these stats: Str:16 Int:17 Wis:14 Dex:10 Con:17 Wil:13 Per:12. train neglect PER, improve STR+1

Idea was to charm something like wraiths or lithes, hide them, lure someone, cast armour+shield as human with healing or travelling up, meta-> full power. Strength ring important as well.

I don't know anyone who has tried it, I got the idea from someone, I I think Azazello wanted to try it.

But didn't get very far to see if it would even work. As it was my first bear, I know very little about bears:
Can you meta with 0 mana? If yes, could you potentially use block door as man and then meta? What about storequake? or bob?
Do you always need max mp for meta?
What about hp?
Can you even command charmies in bear form?

Also would be very useful to experiment how much does full moon help to meta exactly vs no moon? If it is significant, then it is definitely possible to code a moon script, for example into MMapper2 as extra icon that tells you how many ticks till next moon phase. I experimented and moon phases are 100% possible to predict in real time from MUME date and time(Iminye's script uses last moonrise but it's too annoying to update it). That would be also useful for Death Knight, Vale Warg pack and the ancient jewelled helmet smob as well. I actually started this project but didn't finish, here is how far I got, i remember it kind of worked but still work in progress and not sure if I'm ever going to finish it: [submitted link]

2021/08/13 21:49, Nazgum: 
Ah Death i had similar idea and leveled up a charming bear last week.

it actually seems op op, and seems to reduce a lot of the bears weaknesses. Bears have low defense and take a lot of damage, but matters less if u have a tank charmy. You can also put armour + shield spell up then meta, and they stay up =)

i ran around with an eagle and rabid wolf, and felt stupid strong hitting behind it as a bear. mobs just melted.

mana seems to not factor into meta'ing, i was able to meta at warm.

my main feedback was i disliked how when i go bear im suddenly alone. i prefer the social parts of mume. tho u can avoid that a bit by finding a group first, but still.

2021/08/13 21:59, Dearth:   
Awesome! Would love to see a pk log of that character one day;)

2021/08/14 00:57, Faine: 
Mana is what you need to meta, failed attempt drains mana and moves. So the further you are from Vale the harded it is. Dont need max mp but cant meta with 0 mana. Levels do matter also.
Cant really see how caster bear would be op in pk. You fight as warrior then and at lower level you dont have much ob.
For def you can get 100+ db, its not bad for aggro warrior. Well bears have 0 pb and no mood change in meta.

2021/08/14 05:09, Ternt:   
Why wouldn't you just play troll?

2021/08/14 06:10, Dearth:   
Definitely not op, any other combo is better, just pretty cool to have eagle+eagle to buff, some spells, travelling, a focus and mini troll-like stats as white character. Can also play this with very little re-eq, you can essentially be naked and outplay with charmies. And with perfect timing I guess should be able to block door before meta?

Str:24 (base 16+1 age,+2str ring,+1 training,+4 meta)
Int:13 (base 17-4meta)
Wis:12 (base 14-2meta)
Dex:10 (base 10+3meta-3training)
Con:20 (base 17+3meta)
Wil:9 (base 13-4meta)
Per:14 (base 12+2meta)

2021/08/14 07:38, Fieldy:   
I ask, I answer. Here it is - [submitted link]


2021/08/15 12:36, Isadora:  edited 1x   
Ternt, I'm not sure if your question was to me or someone else, but I'll answer it anyhow! I tend to get bored, wanted to try something else out and I wanted to see what everyone was complaining about concerning bears. My last bear experience (and it was brief) was only in a group of 3-5 of us and this time I roughed it out solo (besides once that I recall). I like to test things out myself to see what the problem is all about or the op-ness of something and not base it off what people say or rumor. A few times too many I hear one thing, test it out and find some errors in that assessment that has been told and re-told over a huge span of time, but it is what people now believe because they heard it so long or quoted from a specific player and then believe it for a fact.

The other big reason is it's so sweet to have a character to counter those Trolls or Tarks being pests at a moments notice too, not needing any EQ to do so!

I just didn't find any of those. Instead found big & badass BN's seeking to wreck and destroy me.....And they did =(

Hibernating now, drying up tears and healing wounds though....Thanks for the feedback and ideas too - some good ones and I hope management looks into the bear stuff to bring back some variety to DT-NOC-VALE areas for pk.

2021/08/16 05:49, Neamir: 
In my experience, the biggest challenge/frustration with casting and charming Bears is that your 'power' in bear form seems to depend on your warrior class pracs. Even with amazing warrior or warcombo stats, the more you're prac'd mage, the less powerful (HPs, etc) you get when you meta. Even my Beorning thief with 16 str/con feels kind of shitty in bear form, vs. a pure warrior bear.

So you end up minmaxing mage with warrior, and you get sort of stuck in the middle with like 1 mother eagle, maybe one more little charmie, and a somewhat squishy bear. It can still be hella fun, and it feels like you're conducting a freight train across Arda when grinding, but after a while it gets old. And when you unmeta, you're very weak. It's sort of similar to the mythical 'thief with sleep' combo design - everyone dreams of it, and occasionally you can make it work, but it's just not solid enough to play long term.

Given the success of the 'dark oath' skill, I think it would be interesting to do some muddle-skill type thing for Beornings, like you have to go to the Carrock and 'roar' when the moon is visible, or something, and that somehow augments your power, so that various bear combos become viable. 'Even bears with less formidable strength can derive power from the sacred Carrock and find their combat prowess blah blah blah'. Or maybe a better focus than phials?

I do think Vale is beautifully crafted and well written, and I always enjoy playing there. Its atmosphere feels rich and appropriate to the books. I would love to see a re-invigoration of those zones, and I'll level up a legend if so :-)


2021/08/16 15:02, Isadora:   
IMO Beornings should have an opportunity to build legend homes and not have their personal living quarters mixed with the vagabonds of Bree. And so to not disrespect the one Bear who was allowed one there, place a new little area somewhere for homes, not within the city roads, a mere extension in a little corner. That way the one Bear who was allowed one is still shining with the respect deserved, homes arent cluttering the city itself, and the Vale flourishes more in population, sales, etc. =)

If it were up to me I would also do this for the snobby Elves for Lorien, but not directly within the city itself either, but instead an extension in the northwest woods corner.

Both races would pay higher for their homes to be there if it were my decision. This would reduce clutter and overpopulating Bree and Rivendell too, and as I said above, we would probably notice Lorien and the Vale flourish a bit more. Gives pukes something to put their gold hoard into and more 'variety'. Maybe up the level of legend home requirement for a home in those places, in addition to higher purchase rate!


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