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Mage buffer catchup  discussions


2017/12/13 08:55, Lindisse:   
Hello alls,

I've got some time, and thought I could play mume a bit again... I am thinking about trying a mage buffer, and I came to these stats:

Str:14 Int:19 Wis:13 Dex:13 Con:17 Wil:11 Per:10 (Elf)

Any comment would be welcome, thank you!

2017/12/13 11:02, Breaux:edited 1x   
INT: Crucial - The two most important components of buffing is Armourspell (INT/WIS) and Shieldspell (INT/WIS).
WIS: Very important - as above
CON: Important - HP
STR: Preferable if you want versatility (e.g. tuning into a combo) but not technically necessary for to keep high DB if you have shieldspell (since your weight-DB-malus will be countered by your shieldspell increasing as your base DB lowers).
Dex: Fairly unimportant
WIL: Fairly unimportant (manareg but you are elf so.. already a bonus)
Per: Unimportant

Str:15 Int:19 Wis:16 Dex:10 Con:15 Wil:11 Per:10. (Noldo)

If you lower STR you can put into WIS/CON

2017/12/13 13:48, Rashnak: 
I would go other way than Breaux.

With that DEX, I assume you will be wearing metals - and certainly if you reduce DEX further as Breaux suggests. You will be failing flees, and you want to have absorb for the damage while failing them.

With metals, I would go with higher STR to be able to handle that without going moveless 2 rooms after dismounting.

To me, a buffing mage comes with assumptation that the buffing capability is away from mage levels, so I would go with lower INT - even as low as 16.

Much also depends on what spells you will have, and at what level - for example are you planning to get charm?

I would consider carefully how exactly you are going to play the character. Will you be leading around and buffing for other players, or will you get charm and lead charmies? Or mercenaries?

What kind of things do you hope to buff? Let's say in range brown bears - dark wraiths - brutish forest trolls - spine bushes?

In any case, until hero-legend level (or further) you can get quite far with just sufficient CON, max abs metals, good cure spell, and enough followers (even mercs). Nothing mageish is particularly needed until later.

At sub-legend levels, armour spell is mainly useful to account for a surprise PK or something, and even then only for the first hit or two.


2017/12/13 17:15, Elestir:   
I agree with most of what Breaux wrote. Maxing both INT and WIS is very good idea (higher def, stronger spells, more mana) (neglect WIS later to train STR). Both STR and CON should be within range of 13-15 (STR should be trained up later - metal eq is heavy). I would suggest at least 11 DEX to keep reasonable max mps and fleeing. WIL of 11 is sufficient, but having bit more helps if you plan to use many strong charmies (to get higher % in command skill and charm). PER is unimportant indeed.

2017/12/13 19:44, Telessar:  edited 1x   
Int 19
Wis 18-17

Dex: 11-12 (flees/moves are important when you're wearing heavy eq)

Con: 12-13 (less important since level changes, also there's always growth quest)

Wil: 13-14 (if you keep it this high + have mana ring and you're anal about mana efficiency, you can essentially per permanently be full mana when leading charmie xp)

Strength: 10-11 (argue for lower since you can train it up then str spell to 14-15)

Per: 12-13 (can train this down, train up str)

2017/12/13 20:22, Neamir: 
Here's a set of physical caster stats for Erdaer which I really enjoyed playing. This guy is a cleric tank, not mage as you said, but he was a ton of fun and I recommend the general shape of these stats.

Turns out you don't need amazing physicals to get good bash, because there are so many pracs available. In his prime, this guy had something like 383 hps with healing lore up, and still had good sanc and could blind Mura, etc. He is currently re-prac'd to be a bit more towards caster. But when prac'd as a true war-cleric, he was able to bash several notable darkies 1:1, particularly Trolls since they are normal agg mode.

*# CW>info %b
Str:12 Int:17 Wis:18 Dex:10 Con:16 Wil:15 Per:10

*# CW>train s
You are trying to improve the following abilities:
- strength
You are neglecting the following abilities:
- will
- perception
You are trying to maintain all other abilities as they are.

*# CW>prac
You have 19 practice sessions left.
Skill / Spell Knowledge Difficulty Class Mana Casting time
Bandage Average Easy None
Climb Fair Very easy None
Ride Fair Very easy None
Swim Fair Very easy None
Track Good Normal None
Armour Good Hard Magic User 25 Very short
Detect magic Poor Easy Magic User 4 Very short
Shield Good Hard Magic User 26 Very short
Shroud Poor Hard Magic User 4 Very short
Bless Fair Normal Cleric 4 Very short
Blindness Excellent Hard Cleric 8 Very short
Breath of briskness Excellent Hard Cleric 21 Very short
Create food Average Normal Cleric 4 Very short
Cure light Average Easy Cleric 8 Very short
Dispel evil Excellent Hard Cleric 17 Very short
Heal Excellent Hard Cleric 42 Very short
Protection from evil Average Normal Cleric 17 Very short
Remove poison Average Normal Cleric 5 Very short
Sanctuary Excellent Very hard Cleric 43 Very short
Strength Excellent Hard Cleric 17 Very short
Dodge Bad Hard Thief
Bash Fair Hard Warrior
Parry Average Normal Warrior
Rescue Average Easy Warrior
Two handed weapons Fair Normal Warrior

*# CW>info
You are a male Half-Elf.
You are 103 years, 3 months and 16 days old.
You have played 5 days and 17 hours (real time). Session: 2 mins.
This ranks you as Erdaer the Half-Elven Warden (level 35).
You are five feet eleven and weigh eleven stone and eight pounds.
Perception: vision 45, hearing -10, smell -25. Alertness: normal.
You must have been sent to Arda to free it from the sorrows that weigh upon it.
You are welcome in Bree, Fornost, the Grey Havens, Lórien, Rivendell, and the Shire.
Your equipment weighs one hundred eight pounds. Heavy, but we will manage...
Your base abilities are: Str:13 Int:17 Wis:19 Dex:9 Con:16 Wil:14 Per:8.
Offensive Bonus: 90%, Dodging Bonus: 14%, Parrying Bonus: 92%.
Your armour provides an average protection of 90%.
You have 265/265 hit, 135/135 mana, and 92/92 movement points.
Your mood is wimpy. You will flee if your hit points go below 100.
You have scored 15,122,644 experience points and you have 75,826 travel points.
You are not known for any acts of war.
You need 927,356 exp. points and 0 travel points to reach the next level.
You have 19 lauren coins, 11 celeb pennies, and 71 busc pennies.
You are speaking Westron.
You will swim if necessary.
You will try to climb even under unsafe conditions.

(note that he's a bit old right now, hence the low dex)

2017/12/14 09:22, Razoor: 
Interesting thread. I agree with Breaux/Elestir as far as stat allocation goes, but I think Rashnak is right in that it depends very much on how you want to play. You could go high def route or high abs route, where the latter is probably better/more reliable. I think your initial stats look fine, if you drop Con a bit in favour of more Wis and possibly 1-2 Dex. You could also go with very low Dex and simply count on failing those flees - I tend to go this route for Combos because it increases your raw char-power, but it certainly bites you in the rear on occasion :)

2017/12/14 13:48, Lindisse:   
Thank you, all your advises are both interesting and helpful.

I'll probably choose one of these stats:
Breaux (dex useless): Str:15 Int:19 Wis:16 Dex:10 Con:15 Wil:11 Per:10
ELestir (flee charm): Str:14 Int:19 Wis:16 Dex:11 Con:15 Wil:12 Per:10
neamir (-str, +con): Str:13 Int:19 Wis:16 Dex:11 Con:16 Wil:12 Per:09
razoor2 (char power): Str:14 Int:19 Wis:17 Dex:10 Con:15 Wil:11 Per:09

My only goal currently is to get a little charmie, make a staff, and wander quietly. I also know I tend to be lazy equiping myself...

2017/12/14 18:27, Elestir:   
@Lindisse I do not approve with 16 WIS. I suggested 18 (max), or at least 17 (if you absolutely need the creation points for higher WIL - which you only do if you really want to maximize the efficiency of charm/command - you will still be able to run around with 3 eagles even with 11 WIL at high enough level btw, or if you want to make your sleep spell more reliable). CON is far less important, as at high level you will have enough hps even with 13-14 CON (and even 12 is probably playable).

@Razoor There isn't the duality of high-def route and high-abs route, because both defense and absorbtion comes primarily from spells (shield and armour) and both are primarily based on INT and WIS. There is spellpower route (which provides also high defense and absorbtion) and then there is a physical route (which provides high hps, mps and slightly better hp/mp-regens, slightly better resistace to poisons and wounds and not much else). Spellpower is far more useful to both mage and war-mage combo (all types really) though (mainly because of shield/armour, but also because of max-mana, store, charm/command, spell-damage, and also because of better access to powerful cleric spells like sanctuary or heal should you decide to learn these). Also realize the spellpower scales with level, so your character becomes stronger and stronger in almost all aspects as he gains levels if you rely on INT and WIS. If you focus on CON, extra levels will just provide few more hps and that just pales in comparison.

I actually think MUME needs some change that makes usefulness of physical stats like STR/CON/DEX scale at similar pace to INT and WIS.

2017/12/14 19:20, Lindisse:   
Elestir: Should I understand there's only a subtle difference between a mage buffer and and simple mage? Or does the difference comes from the practice?

I am understanding the reasoning though, and tried to find some stats satisfying more your criteria (max wis, a bit of dex to flee):
Str:14 Int:19 Wis:18 Dex:11 Con:14 Wil:10 Per:09 (Elf)

2017/12/14 19:59, Razoor: 
I obviously dont consider armor spell as part of the xp-kit. Doesnt seem viable to rearmour that often. So when I say high abs route I mean full metals.

2017/12/14 20:09, Elestir:   
@Lindisse Main difference is in the equipment. Mage buffer will wear metals (shining or fine). Therefore his load will be higher and if he wants to keep some on-foot mobility, he should get reasonably high STR (training helps). He also shouldn't have utterly low CON (like 9) not to have too low hit-points pool. So to answer your question: non-buffer mage can afford to go for very low STR and CON in order to boost his other stats further (WIL makes most sense).

Your last stats are better, yes. Maybe even better would be:
Str:14 Int:19 Wis:18 Dex:11 Con:13 Wil:11 Per:11
or
Str:13 Int:19 Wis:18 Dex:11 Con:14 Wil:11 Per:11

But e.g. my Nimmeth works fine even with 11 CON (~190 hps in 4th age at level 86 without growth) having these stats:
Str:13 Int:19 Wis:18 Dex:11 Con:11 Wil:14 Per:11

2017/12/15 02:56, Telessar:   
Exactly what Elestir said. A 'normal mage' is as good as a buffer - if not better - than a high con/high str mage because in the end it's armour spell and heavy eq that matters. Just make sure you get enough str to not go moveless.

I had 15 con base on Gelmir and it was not any better than 12 con.

2017/12/15 05:08, Rashnak: 
Specifically for Lindisse though, I would not reflect upon your experiences with level 86 or even level 50 characters.

Getting 3 eagles to follow you is a task on its own, that you have to repeat every session, regardless of your stats. Do you want to spend time doing that? Is even 2 too much?

Given the goal of:

'to get a little charmie, make a staff, and wander quietly. I also know I tend to be lazy equiping myself...'

Personally I wouldn't even go mage way, but a charming cleric with blindness and bow. But that's another story.

For a defensive charmer, I would recommend first getting a bashing charmie (mountain lion or bashpig), and then add eagle or tarantula if you can.

If you wear metals and not uber-eq, your armour will be absorbing some damage, but most bigger mobs will hit you neverthless, aborting any unstored spells that you may want to throw in. Not to mention that they may bash you. But if you have a bashing charmie, you can nuke while opponent is bashed.

2017/12/15 07:35, Aranaeth: 
Pretty much what Elestir says, however i would not want some 11 wil if id intend on using charmies.

While its sure that you CAN have em charmed, doesent mean it sometimes wouldnt become time consuming. Especially in non max sets with no circlet, corb, copper, wil quest.

But there is always a price to pay when it comes to combos.

Str:14 Int:19 Wis:18 Dex:11 Con:13 Wil:11 Per:11
(btw half elf gets 14, 18, 19, 11, 13, 12, 11, [98] or
14, 18, 19, 10, 14, 12, 10, [97])

Dex 10, necessary evil again, not much worse than 11 anyway.

Train down 1 wis, up one str.

Charming mage in metals is pretty straightforward and fits your goal.

2017/12/15 14:55, Svarten:   
Elestir's stats are as far as I can see the best but I'd like to share Helmer's just for some perspective:

Str:10 Int:19 Wis:18 Dex:12 Con:11 Wil:14 Per:14

This character was made back when PER mattered. I think it's still fine stats for a pure mage but my point is that I actually played it as a warrior combo for a while, before the level inflation, and it worked. I had near-18 strength, a warsword/staff for quickly switching between offense/defense, maybe 170-something defense with mails+BB, and I took the additional challenge of ditching charmies mostly because I didn't have enough pracs, but also to appear less intimidating. Basically what I did was pour prac points indiscriminately in warrior skills to see what came out, and went on to try it in battle. To this date I believe this is the real way to make a combo, not listening to the say-sos of those who try one thing and when it works stick to it. Of course I can't say my combo worked flawlessly but it was competitive in PK atleast, although it worked better in its original role as a pure caster.

What I'm saying is essentially that you can make do with piss-poor and ill-chosen physical stats and still be an acceptable warrior combo. If what you mean by that is being capable of dodging/absorbing alot of damage, and deal alot of hit+spell damage in return.

If you go this or Elestir's route with low/abysmal physicals, you should pick an elf as they have more relevant stat bonuses and some manaregen boost.

If you want higher physicals I'd instead advice picking Half-elf or even a Human, as they're more balanced, and maybe go for a bashing combo with a good mix of defense and offense. Bashing combos used to be hard to pull off, mainly because they lacked pracs, and also because most characters built for this revolved around running around solo and bashing/nuking enemies to their deaths. To do that you need a lot of OB and bash. But you can also have a working bash along with the ability to use charmies, if you wish to rely on the added parrysplit. You can then skimp out a bit on the STR DEX WIL, and get some CON in return. You will want 19+ strength after you aged and trained it so STR can't be lowered too far, I'd say 15 is about ideal when making the character for this purpose as you can start to play almost right away and don't have to wait 2-3 months for 'train improve STR' to wield your weapon.

For equipment, try get metals+that new focus item (some helm?) instead of a staff. If you can't get it, and are OK with limiting yourself to smiting, try get a max offense/defense staff to tank/bash/cast with, and a decent smiter to deal damage with. Or go entirely without focus and use a superior weaponclass - I can almost guarantee it'll work any way you do it. Trial and error will get you farther than listening to rambling advice.

2017/12/15 15:05, Cohen:   
As others wrote as long as you want a mage, stat it as a mage and wearing of metal equipment will make you a buffer for your charmies.

The cleric-mage in metal with blind, charm and shoot works pretty well.

The other discipline is when you are looking for a char who will buffer for a group/pk - then you should think about non-standard mage stat set -> wearing db ring, shield, bashing, block and store quakes, then you should care also about physical stats, but i would pick for such char a dwarf, not an elf. You can have char with 160+ defence 350+ hps+armour spell and 4 stored quakes in the end.

2017/12/15 15:16, Merarl: 
dwarf mage IMHO

2017/12/16 19:20, Elestir:   
Elf is clear choice for mage, for it not only has the best mana-regen, but also bonus in the most important stat (INT) which helps all your spells (and AFAIK has even direct impact on absorbtion of your armour spell). Half-elf's WIS helps as well, but not as much. Therefore I would suggest Half-elf only if you plan to spend lots of pracs in cleric spells (like sanctuary or blindness), i.e. for mage-cleric combo rather than pure mage.

Humans and dwarves make sturdier mages who lack the elven advantages, but they make very good war-mages, especially with bash, wearing a shield and a sapphire ring, but even human war-mages with staff can be powerful. Dwarf mage has the worst mana-regen from the races I discussed above, but also has two significant advantages, and that is the bonus in WIL (thus having +2 WIL compared to Elf), which makes maxed INT/WIL dwarf mage the best charmie-commander available and secondly suffering no maluses in the mines of Moria.

2017/12/17 13:27, Arcanum:   
to spit in your casserole
16 18 14 15 12 13 12
con up, per down

human

2017/12/18 17:11, Lindisse:   
I am reading this thread with attention, because all your advises are very helpful. But I am discovering I do not know exactly yet what kind of character I want to play. And meanwhile, I still have fun with Lindisse. :)

2017/12/18 20:54, Eldaril: 
On a related note, calling tanks 'buffers' is so 20th century... a buffer is someone who provides character buffs. :P

2018/01/07 07:08, Strori:edited 2x   
Funny thing is that Lindisse does not wear shield/staff

2018/01/08 17:19, Lindisse:   
Beware of Lindisse, she has a shield now!


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