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Which was the least favourable change to MUME ever? catchup  discussions

2017/12/08 19:33, BjŲrn:edited 1x   
Obviously the title of this thread sounds pretty negative, but it's not really meant in that way, I just got curious as I came to think of legend homes and figured the removal of those from open terrain was probably the least favourable change to MUME during my playing, as they used to be a real playground for pk.

Other candidates include block door, which made the game safer, and the removal of the bottleneck on ABR as Brolg was introduced.

Change to bob and draughts was pretty easy to live with however.

What's your opinions?

2017/12/08 21:25, Fieldy:   
If I am going to say something concerning stabbers are you going to freak out? :D

Honestly, I do not feel any change has been least favourable. I rarely stick my nose into the development of the game and just play it which means I just go with the flow.

I do remember when quake was nerfed. That was awful - you could only quake ohurk chief to hurt with 4 quakes from a staffed legend mage. But soon it was brought back to normality and they just downgraded the damage in open areas and brought in the debris damage feature. So maybe that? But it was changed back to normal.

2017/12/08 22:01, BjŲrn: 
Yeah I figured someone was going to mention sneak changes.

And I agree, it's a great game, so this wasn't really about whining, I just miss all the fun in those legend homes, like waiting for Smooth to log on behind his silly smoothstone north of Tharbad.

2017/12/08 22:08, Fieldy:   
Sry, it was just a really good moment to abuse :)

Oh yeah, smoothstone was a sweet spot. In a way I find those legendhomes were really fun to use for pk too. Its basically you have bought some land for your character, established a home there and then someone can go and fight in there.

I actually don't see any problem with sneak changes. Really, its cool.

2017/12/10 04:24, Masoj: 
Worst change is nosneak/thief downgrade. There used to be a lot of thief pk (even 1v1, when was your last thief on thief 1v1?) and now there is stab and run or 1 room shooters. And thief is easiest class to level as a new player but you can't pk that class in a fun way in my opinion. Your argument that before this change thieves were too powerful is debunked by 'puke cleric' which would remain the best. I didn't want to go here again, but you asked for it!

2017/12/10 06:13, Crichton:   
Iím not a fan of all the changes to scouts, but I really miss having doors I can pick during pk. There used to be a lot more of them but they got removed bc they werenít realistic. Orc camp rock is a great example. Mume is best for casters these days.

2017/12/10 11:10, Fieldy:   
Just for info to thief players.

Pk with thief is still really doable.
Just yesterday I fought with my thief 1vs2 and killed one, some days ago did a 1vs1 against a shaman and won, and a week ago fought a warrior orc twice and won both cases.
I agree that after the changes it was difficult to understand how to fight now in 1vs1 situations, but try some new tactics that will take you out of your comfort zone and you'll see it is rather possible ;)
Yeah, don't have the best tactics against trolls yet, but I'll figure it out!

2017/12/10 11:27, Ortansia:   
There were not many deep changes in the game except the sneak change, but there were many annoying superficial changes such as change of terrain, which makes the mapper not syncronize, so you have to remap.

Other annoying superficial change was making some exists, no more pickable just for realism sake, which ruined many PK Spots, like the orc camp Rock mentioned above.

2017/12/10 11:59, Svarten:   
I particularly don't like the recent slew of full rerolls, multiple XP-boosting changes, especially the diminished XP loss in PK, and eq-save-when-outrented. I don't like the removal of death traps, in for instance the vicinity of whitie towns where new players are the most likely to find and experience them.

So I waste my rerolls, sun myself and eat your shining.

I don't like rocks either for much the same reason. If I have them on me, it's usually either because I looted them or because I taught a newbie/rookie how to do Gloom without dying too much. If my adversaries have them, however, I am sure it was a deliberate scheme to cheat death wherever or whenever it came to them.

I don't like that you can always see which direction you flee, even more so while blind, or which room you fled into and what color the flowers were, or that all doors are named 'exit' and having no locks.

I don't like that 50% or so of the game's areas are either prohibiting entry for, or severely restricting, darkies. I don't like that the western cities have more rooms than all the surrounding XP areas.

Legend homes should IMO be razed liberally when the occupants aren't paying visits anymore so that they don't cause exponential growth in the city size when even more retired banking people and their ill-gotten charmie-XP-cash, stained with hobbit blood, is flooding in.

Retirement is in general something I believe is used too liberally, as it's now used more like a bank, of characters and equipment. People will make and play characters till level 50 (which is now level 25), getting a fullset, reaching their life goal (#1 on the WL list, or soloed Svarten which is a greater challenge), and retire it.

Legend players should just know when to die and make room.

2017/12/10 12:05, Fieldy:   
:D :D :D

2017/12/10 15:41, Gal:   
I retired after I soloed Svarten :)

2017/12/10 20:36, BjŲrn: 
Wow, Svarten sure is hardcore!

2017/12/11 15:12, Rashnak: 
I think the fact that people change is the least fabourable change in the game. They grow up and out of the game - get married and have babies. Some just die off.

Neverthless, for reason or another completely separate of the game, people quit.

So sad.

2017/12/13 13:55, Andrůg:   
Personally I really hated the legend homes change as well, but for completely different reasons. For some time A+ liked to emphasize that this game is not just about PK in a Middle Earth environment, 'try to roleplay' and all that. And then they pretty much killed off the only feature that actually enabled roleplay more than anything else in this game. These days legend homes are simply tools rich characters use to lower their rent costs, there's really nothing more to it. But back in the days MUME had some really cool legend homes all around the place.

All that said, I'm not saying that that was my least favourite change of all time, it's just that I really disliked it and found it very much contradicting the general image people in charge were trying to develop. Of course, these days I don't really see anyone thinking of MUME as anything else but a 'PK in Middle Earth environment' type of game, so there's no contradiction any more. :)

2017/12/17 16:58, Razoor: 
Hi Bogger!

By far the worst change in my opinion was the removal of pickable doors all over the place. It's even worse than the sneak change - you can work around not having sneak, but you can't work around not locking people in!

It killed NOC pk completely - usually this is attributed to Anduin/Vale being added, but if you're behind a door there's no running to vale! These days you kind of have to have block to force a fight to death, or run very far to find a pickable door, and that's just not conducive to a good and spontaneous PK environment.

Some of these changes have been reverted in the last few years as some new pickable doors were added, which is great, but I think we need to restore (and possibly add) pickable doors in strategic PK locations. Imagine being able to pick hunter, orc camp rock, bushes S of roots, or the troll-place just N of crack...or some of the exits around Dunland, or in the area around LB->RD! Very few places in that area where you can fight, which is illogical since it's a heavily trafficked zone. So, more pickable doors (and noport flags)!

2017/12/17 21:07, Ortansia:   
@Rashnak I think the opposite, it is not about people changing, but about the game not changing enough to adapt to new context, and be more attractive to new and old players.

2017/12/18 11:50, Vaelrin: 
Worst change was when they made cheating illegal...

2017/12/18 14:06, Rashnak: 
@Ortansia: Well, I think that people change faster than MUME (or any game) can ever change. But especially MUME, considering its nature as a free text game, and limits of the codebase.

I reckon that if MUME tried to adapt itself to how players evolve or mature, it would be a losing battle and would ultimately haste the downfall by driving away those like me, who look for some kind of familiarity and continuity from it.

But of course I agree that more changes would be nice - at expense of building more areas, if must.

2018/02/09 04:28, Ethar: 
My least favorite change was MUME VII to MUME VIII.

2018/02/11 22:54, Saensil: 
The change that introduced fine metal/removed iron-shod boots/etc. And the changes that decreased the usefulness of defense for casters.

They basically removed any reason to use anything other than fine metal, shining chain, or shining metal.

Remember back in the day when casters actually wore equipment like cloth? The fact that casters wear abs gear is proof that the equipment system in MUME is fundamentally flawed. It should have been scrapped and reworked 20 goddamn years ago. It wouldn't even be that hard of a change.

2018/02/13 16:47, Ares:   
Agree with Saensil, that change reduced the variety of choices to almost NIL. Imo its retarded that everyone wears the same eq.

2018/02/19 21:07, Nukafuka: 
Ruining the scout class in the name of balance, for sure! Don't even get me started...

2018/02/19 22:24, One:   
Pickable doors! And itís such an easy thing to change back.

2018/02/20 08:55, Orlanth: 
Which doors you are thinking about exactly?

2018/02/20 12:51, Fastolph: 
I don't care much for the gap / weak spot change. Altho I can see it's purpose. Now you either need to go for full absorb, og you can just go for light defence gear (without going into this too deep).

Also: Nosneak isnt such a hazzle if you learn to live with it...
*wink* Nukafuka.

2018/02/20 17:25, Elestir:   
@Fastolph Did anyone ever talk about gap/weak spot as being a problem? I think ppl have problem with the fact that the only useful eq to counter melee damage is high absorb eq (shining metal) and everything else pretty much sucks. I also remember that when I first started playing MUME there actually were casters (and even some warriors) playing in plain equipment and it was working (although arguably not as effective as shining metal which was way rare). Nowadays, it's pretty much suicidal to walk in plain, because once you get parry-splitted, even super-high defense chars will suffer insane damage. Only way to fix this is nerfing parry-split / boosting defense. But at the same time some balancing is needed so it's not that easy to get both: super-high defense and super-high absorb (at least not without some other disadvantages). I will only add that nowadays you actually can have both, just that the defense part is not as effective as it was in earlier versions of MUME.

2018/02/21 07:18, Fastolph: 
I do agree, and the key here is 'high absorb eq'. I still see scouts running around in shining chains+ plains (boots, hood, gloves). And hits will in 90% of the cases hit on the plains. Same goes for casters, but there armour spell helps quite abit (when it drops, your dead.). I tried various ways on Fastolph, and even shining metals+plains the difference isn't something to brag about (vs full plains).
But ofc, you can just adapt to the fact - and try to avoid parry splitt situations.

2018/02/21 15:35, Nukafuka: 
@Fastolph: I am referring to all the 'balancing' that lead to the scouts poor state. Nosneak by itself, if it was the only nerf, wouldn't be such a bother, will refrain from going into more detail though, as you are just trolling :) And no, 'learn to live with it' isnt a valid argument when one talks about balance..

2018/02/22 13:14, Orlanth: 
A builder's point of view.

About NOC hunter. It would be quite easy to argue why he would want to keep his house locked living in so unfriendly area. On the other hand I also wondered why the hell he lives so close to orkish caves, so it would be easy to see him moving away.

About NOC rock, that exit would need to be changed to something else for it to be pickable like trapdoor or some other door. Then come up with RP reason what happened in area, why did the exit change, what is happening in there and so on.

Same thing with every other place like bushes, they can't be lockable or pickable. Changing a door to have a lock is a command that takes maybe 15 seconds to type, doing that is not a problem. Higher-ups would need to approve the stuff, and someone would have to write the background and new descs etc.

2018/02/22 14:39, Fastolph: 
@Orlanth Why not add some feature that make it possible to make a barricade infront of the natural exits instead.
As an example: In Orc Camp rock - maybe it should be possible to break loose some rocks from the cave and place it infront of the exit (rock) with some delayed command. Opening these barricades could also be opened with e.g the 'dig' command that is already existing and in use for similar purposes in Under Warrens.

I placed this on the idea board some years ago - and yes I am aware of the 'barricade' in Eymn, but its not quite the same.

Probably to much of a hazzle to implement, but would for sure help on the pk part of MUME.

2018/02/22 15:14, Sadur: 
@Fastolph That would need mudlle or even C-code, so it would mean that I (if it was my build) would have to make a mudlle request. The request would have to be approved by Sv and then the mudller or coder would do it in some far seen future. Sometimes stuff like that happens fast, but usually not.

But technically speaking it would be very easy to change it to be delayed instead (maybe it already is, can't remember). I say technically because changing existing stuff is always more hassle, as far as I know anyway.

2018/02/22 18:19, One:   
Orc camp rock, just change it to a trolldoor/stonedoor/slabdoor its in a troll house area! Don't make it complicated by overthinking it. Delay the door or change the name and make it pickable.

As for bushes and exits similar to that (actually anything not on a hinge), there should be a natural delay in opening and closing exits like that, and the higher your str the faster you can open/close it. I don't understand where they draw the line on doors being realistic. How can I open and close a pile of corpses or a pile of rubble in the blink of an eye. Add a 1-5 sec delay to unhinged doors depending on there weight and size. Or stop being anal about doors not being realistic and bring back some pickable exits.

2018/02/23 08:50, Nukafuka: 
You can always add an additional skill to the thief/warrior or ranger line, that works similar to block, but lower duration, and consumes moves to use...add possibility to 'force exit' in order to attempt to remove block, costing moves as well...

There is a limit to how realistic a mud can get before it stops being fun...this is a text game in a fantasy world, not a real life simulator...

2018/02/23 09:32, One:   
There is a limit to how realistic a mud can get before it stops being fun...this is a text game in a fantasy world, not a real life simulator...

Yeah thatís what I think too. Itís a game! Go for what makes it more fun rather than whatís realistic. Pickable rock, why the fuck not!

2018/02/23 09:59, Cur: 
My least favourite changes by far:

1) The limitations on mobility. The only thing it accomplished was establishing the supreme dominance of a few classes and playing styles in terms of limitless moves, while other classes and playing styles were nerfed beyond repair.

2) The nerfing of scouts and thieves. Both in terms of limiting their moves and their fighting capabilities.

3) The randomizing of the melee system, which has elevated absorb eq to the position of Absolute King of All. You cannot fight toe-to-toe without it.

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