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Changing Nosneak (Off Topic) catchup  discussions


2017/03/10 05:16, Baratheon: 
So I wanted to bitch and whine about thieves and didn't want to do it on the main thread. So i made this one. I loved thieves before the change. Sure they were annoying as hell, but they were actually deadly. Thieves now are annoying as hell and you can barely trick them into fighting.

I think I've had 2 thief 1v1s in the past few years. And I lost both with opponent surviving hurt. Before I would get thief fights all the time. Thief is how I learned the game and it was so fun! I thought OP part was sneak cleaving?

All serious fixes/ideas please post to the main thread.

2017/03/10 06:26, Telessar:  edited 1x   
Since I can talk frankly here since I'm not trying to 'moderate' that other thread...:) Random thoughts:

1) Sneak/shoot with were overpowered (just read any old thief ER log). Take bhsb vs. casters for example, if you missed your quakes, you were dead. 2 roomers were 50/50. 3/4 roomers against someone with a relative clue? Yea... forget about that.

2) Warscouts were insane and IMO the most overpowered solo class (if we are not including charmies). Get the benefit of a sneaker (survivability, sneaking past mobs, backstab) while being able to basically be a warrior with shoot? A well pracced/eq warscout could go toe-to-toe with warriors even.

3) Hitting through protect was OP in a group fight. There's a log here where Leikzum/Riddar/Hezzel destroys Woland in a 3v3 in undeads as an example.

2017/03/10 06:35, Zepir:   
I love playing thief and here is my opinion

Thief is very weak and absolutely unplayable as pure for anything but stabbing and running, I have leveled more thieves then any other class trying all kinds of different combos' , it is truly sad you have to multi class to even make the char more then something that just stabs the enemy and if it does not kill them, promptly run. I am not that kind of scout player and it boggles my mind how people enjoy that. Bash is a must to do any sort of group PK or Solo PK without stab etc like bashing an shooting. Something abolutely needs to be done with thief and I bet a majority of Mume agrees, I do not get why management does not allow populist changes and isntead rather see the player base decline to hold on to some dogmatic scheme of the game that selfish code holders wont budge to bring more players. You look at muds like Aardwolf, it has hundreds of players and they listen to the players and they add things all the time and they conduct polling and all kinds of stuff, Mume could easily be that popular because of the popularity of LOTR if management actually cared about the game dieng , its bonkers how hard certain people who never play at all are so dead set on keeping the game under certain narrative or set of rules.

I say listen to the players, take polls, be more active, I know for a fact there is plenty of players who are very competent coders that old gladly get involve in improving the game but again no its managed by people who do not even play the game. I mean ER has such a freaking old poll.

So my point about thieves was they should not have to multi-class and suffer the consequences of having a shitty sneak and stab due to the multi-class , I have tested so many different combos of percent backstab on thief and bash etc, even with 106 percent sneak and stab praccing bash that much really affects mobs sensing you whens sneaking, I know this from countless trips inside noc stabbing people under defences, I have done this a TON and I can tell you that having multi-class makes you suffer terribly , with 106 percent sneak and backstab I fail tons more stabs vs Kormock and his elites or Takhr, when I am totally pure save for a prac or two in parry etc at 109 percent my sneak is great, I can easily stab people at Brolg mob and at kormock no problem but again at 106 percent with only bash pracced i can barely do that.

Thief class is completely broken and useless as pure besides those 1 stab kills etc which any thief on the war lord list besides Telessar and Breaux are exactly those kind of thieves.

please Ainur please for once listen to the people who play this game and populate rather then a small tiny minority of people that do not play and are not significant.

2017/03/10 09:51, Nukafuka: 
@Baratheon: Since scouts lost their ability to survive in large closables, they adapted. A scout with moves is nokill unless they fuck up badly. Since our effective moves took nerf after nerf after nerf, we simply move less..a scout that would hunt its prey before is now more likely to hide @ seek spots and such or entrances to closables, to land stabs on unsuspecting victims. Since comboing out has so many downsides, a new kind of thief was born: stab and run. This is the thief that you are pissed about and thieves hate it just as much as you do. Would love to go back to playing my mage/war thieves but their thief skills suck even more then pure thieves skills do..

@Telessar: So umm...let me get this straight...a thief was able to kill mages that didnt use charm before nosneak was removed..true...however, nowadays 2 lithes/eagles are bare minimum for a legend mage/combo..even a newbie would have no problems taking down a scout using that. How about cleric landing 2 dispel evils to rip on a full hp scout, between pierces? About warscouts i agree, they were a bit to powerful, especially in packs but no warscout could stand toe to toe with a warrior with similar levels/gear/skill. Their deadliness came from being able to bypass protect and their high survivability (a scout with moves would be nearly nokill in a big enough closable). I agree to a certain extent to the OP-ness of sneak vs protect but on the other hand, protect is also OP and sneak was a good counter to it (meybe a bit 2 effective) :)

@Zepir: HEY! my thief's there and i cant stab for s**t (landed 2 player stabs only and failed hundreds since i play this char)..how dare you accuse me of being able to land stab...

I mentioned this before, but every thief session leaves me frustrated and empty inside, regardless of what i do (stab mobs gh or pvp). Failing 2/3 of the stabs i try to land is very demoralizing..imagine how fun it would be if 2 out of 3 mage/cleric spells backfired. Before some smartbum points out that you need to be pure for stab to work: i had multiple thief characters in every single race that can prac thief skills (no troll thief :((( ) with various stats and prac sets and i can honestly say that even a pure thief with 0 pracs outside its class will fail sneaks/stabs way to much. Thief is the ONLY class that has skills that fail on a constant basis, even when kept pure. This has to change and there is no excuse to keep it like it is now. Most of all, thief needs WORKING SKILLS!!!

2017/03/10 10:29, Cur: 
Posted this in the other thread, but I guess it belongs here. I'll delete it in the other one.

Thieves were mostly the only thing you could play if you wanted to be solo all the time, and enjoy both the ability to xp a little, AND pk with a modest chance of success, without having every single session inevitably ruined by powerplayers or large groups.

And not even when thieves were at the height of their imagined overpoweredness did they stand a snowball's chance in hell of surviving an unexpected encounter with a Norsu- or Throgpack of spamming smiters, and could consider themselves lucky if they lived to flee from a spampoisoning group.

When those were logged on, people simply started logging off on the opposing side of the war, as the one-sidedness made things boring for everybody.

The overrepresentation of thieves on the warlords lists was an indication of how many people actually want to play this game solo, as opposed to being in groups, and not an indication of thieves being overpowered (bar sneaksmiting, and bashstabbing). Pking solo successfully as any other class (in terms of pk) is not something everybody can do, as it requires a speed of link and amount of playing time not everybody has to spare.

Can I please ask the management to keep some perspective when considering what they want to do with this class? It would be wise to resist the temptation to pander (even further) to groups and powerplayers, which have already been so overpowered in MUME for so long, that the playability of this mud for the single player is, in some cases, only a distant memory.

We've had years of pandering to the wants of people who want to be able to pk and xp the mud dry, while being ubersafe - never entering a closable and never moving unless in a group of 5+. What exactly is the problem with solo players being allowed to pk and xp while still playing cautiously? I know a lot of people complain that thieves are boring to play against, running away before they can be spamkilled and/or trapped, but if you're going to accept that as a legitimate complaint, I _DEMAND_ that you nerf groups and all other classes in exactly the same way. For the solo player, nothing is as boring as trying to play in a mud with groups of 3-5 running circles around the entire map of Arda, killing everything in sight, in the same amount of time as it takes you to move from A to B without going so low on moves you'll automatically die if you meet them. Give groups move delay and movement cost penalties large enough so as to give them a disadvantage against a solo hitfleeing character. Make LOS logarithmically more likely for every group member above 2, when facing a solo opponent. Give groups significantly larger hitdelay than solo players. And hugely reduce the extent to which you can avoid these maluses by training leadership. Make following AND leading cost markedly more moves than moving alone of one's own volition.

Playing MUME solo as any class and with some success must be a viable option. Management is going to have to realize this and respect it at some point.

/rant.

2017/03/10 11:16, Zepir:   
Well said Cur

2017/03/10 12:29, Nukafuka:edited 1x   
@Cur: I will have to disagree with you on the solo class part. Thief plays solo only because there is no group benefit they can bring, vs other classes. Me, and many other scout or non-scout players hate to go solo and would gladly give it up for some group action. Since mume has such a low playerbase, and since the ainus insist on making people with charm more effective then a group can ever be in many regards, there is a big lack of people to group with. I would push the other way entirely, making smobbing impossible solo or without a well organized group. What makes mume great its the players and player interactions..why would i even wanna log on so i can stare at a wall of text if there's noone to play with...However, you are right when you say any class should be able to solo to some extent. Would like to add to that: 'and have fun while doing it' (unlike thief sessions atm).

Regarding survivability, any class can avoid dying, especially since mume playerbase took a dive, if they know what they are doing, even versus a powergroup (you can smell them from miles away usually and can get off even if they surprise you). I would have to say its way to easy nowadays to shake someone off, especially with endless moves (that bobing classes get), word, teleport, powders and so on...if it was up to me...i would make it harder to escape, not easier..

If you consider LOS as not being bad enough, you should try playing a caster..you are getting LOS on a constant basis, even with single person being engaged. I It's a bad band aid fix imho..will not whine about it though, as i dont have a better solution in mind atm.

If it was just me, i would be for removing leadership altogether but it would hurt groups of friends way to much and hurt mume on the long run..

Edit: At the end of the day, mume should be fun for soloers and groupers altogether, for smobbers, expers and pkillers..we might not like it sometimes, but its the only way to gather a big enough player base.

2017/03/10 12:57, Cur: 
I mostly only play caster and warrior types these days. And LOS is nowhere near bad enough to even coming close to offsetting the huge advantages.

Imagine any scenario, where a group is fighting one or two opponents. The group will get LOS on one, maybe two spells and hits per group attempt. The enemy will only get slightly less LOS, and percentwise the amount is the same afaik. This automatically means that an advantage in numbers of even as little as one or two, means a dispel or harm goes through. Variables such as link, organization and player skill (assuming equal level and eq, which is almost never the case) can tip the scales decidedly, of course, but the consistent disadvantage is too big. Way too big. In my opinion.

Then again, I don't disagree with you that it would be nice to be able to contribute to a group with a thief. Before absorb got elevated to a status of 'must-have', Cur was able to buff quite usefully in an xp group. After changes to ob vs def, this is no longer possible for a non-absorb wearing character of any kind.

Absorb eq is the single worst grossly unbalanced thing in MUME right now, and has been for years. Everything else literally pales in comparison.

Warriors, mages and clerics can wear nice absorb sets and still remain mobile (the latter two due to having bob), and the encumbrance has no effect whatsoever on their skills (with the possible exception of having lower ob, which hurts the warriors most). Thieves can either wear nice absorb sets, or be semi-mobile and have functioning thief skills - that is, to the extent game mechanics allow thief skills to be functional even at the best of times *coughbackstabbingmobscough*.

If you want to fix thieves, this imbalance HAS to be addressed.

And don't even get me started on how ridiculous it is that wearing armour - a piece of warrior equipment - hurts warriors more than it does clerics and mages.

2017/03/10 14:21, Telessar:  edited 7x   
Nukafuka: See but your 'reasoning' is something that I know that some of the V+ would ignore. So because casters can charm, it should be OK for a thief to have a huge upper hand against a caster who doesn't use charmies? That would probably just encourage more charmie pk for most. And actually, even with nosneak, a thief can handle a caster in 3-4 rooms with pierce with good flees. IMO a thief (with old sneak) should not be able to manhandle casters in closeables, pick off groups with backstab or splitting mobs, while having the survivability like no other.

'How about cleric landing 2 dispel evils to rip on a full hp scout, between pierces?' See this is just plain false. Pierce with good attack can interrupt qdispels if engaged. And it took at least 3-4 qdispels to kill a thief (with a substantial level difference) BEFORE level changes.

2017/03/10 19:15, Razoor: 
Actually I got dispelled for 180hp the other day by a significantly lower levelled cleric :D

I agrew with what Cur said actually, I would be happy to see more delay added to groups in general. Maybe not just movedelay but more LOS and hitdelay too. It is actually entirely unreasonable to nerf a solo class while letting groups still roam around untouched, with infinite moves from bob, using mounts, having block, easy access to rocks, etc. Scout could never compare with that really, if you put it into perspective :)

2017/03/10 19:18, Telessar:   
Really? Schmidt didn't even do 180 hps dispels when he and I tested before I believe.

2017/03/10 22:39, Roadkill: 
My lvl 39 orc warrior got dispelled for 164 hps by a lvl 26 cleric last week. Three quick dispels in the time it takes a thief to make one backstab...

That's just stupidly high DPS.

2017/03/11 13:53, Nukafuka:edited 1x   
@Telessar: A scout never had a guaranteed win vs a mage in closables. Sure, the thief had the upper hand but mage could turn the tides with some spamming and/or well placed quakes. It all came down to failed flees and/or good prediction. I was pointing out charmies because its the current standard, everyone and their grandma using it, its a counter for pretty much whatever the enemy brings to the table. If there is something that gives you an edge, people will use it. If you want to give a mage withouth charmies a 50-50 chance to win vs a thief, then give a thief the same chance to win vs the mage with charmies..I find charmies as a bad addition to mume, would make my day if they got removed altogether but it wont happen..all i can hope for is for them to get toned down to fit in the current meta.

Truth is, altrough many classes have options to customise their pracset/equipment, and so on, thief got left with no such option and are pigeonholed into a 80-90% fixed pracset, with very slight variations on the same boring build.

As for dispel evil..my last encounter as a tork scout (max con) with a puke cleric (70+) took me to awful in 2 quick dispels. dispels are capped around 180hps as far as i'm aware, and even a lvl 26 can hit that cap on ocasions (although high lvl will land maxed dispels more consistently). Combine that with its insane cast speed and you get the highest dps that is possible in mume. I know there's no excuse for scouts to eat so many spells but next time you meet a setted cleric on your scout, i dare you to eat those 2-3 dispells and see if you live..

I saw you tried to play your scout lately. Didnt you find it hard to find people you can actually win against?

Edit: call lightning might be slightly higher dps then dispel evil but the casting prerequisites make it a very seldom used spell.

2017/03/11 14:12, Elestir:   
I agree with Cur that MUME should be supporting soloers somewhat more and features powergroups have been (ab)using should be addressed too (ideally via melee/LOS related solutions).

I also agree that MUME is very much absorb-eq oriented, but to change that we would have to boost dodging/parrying (while adding big db/pb-maluses to abs eq). Then in turn def-chars would become OP so we would have to boost magic users to counter them. Then in turn casters would become OP, so we would have to nerf their defensive abilities (e.g. via maluses for abs eq, so they could then be well-countered by offensive hitters)...

I disagree with Nukafuka's criticism of charm. Charm is fine as it is, for it supports soloers vs powergroups (powergroup will always be more powerful anyway, no matter how many charmies u bring). But he is right that if mage without charm is supposed to get 50/50 chances vs scout, then scout should ask the same against mage with charm. But I wouldn't remove charm to achieve that. Instead I would introduce a way for scouts (or non-charmers in general) to get NPC-allies (mercenaries sort of / but not some useless low level mercenaries with crappy AI that can't even be ordered, but charmie-like mercenaries). It's kinda unfair the only way to get decent NPC allies is charm.

2017/03/11 14:58, Nukafuka: 
@Elestir: I wouldn't mind charm so much, of course, if it could be countered. Unfortunately your idea of 'charmies for everyone' looks like pigeonholing to me. I could see it working, sure, and in lack of something better, it could partially address the charm issues.

Instead of that, i would like to see unique ways for each class to deal with the charmies. Like a thief throwing dirt in the eyes of npc's to blind them for a few ticks, or warrior breaking charmie legs or whatnot, to prevent them for moving a few ticks..just some ideas...

Note: Mage already has 2 ways of dealing with groups (earthquake, charm), while other classes have none.

I would also like to state that mume playerbase is so low, and everyone is so focused on running around solo, that power groups are something you will seldomly encounter. Instead, charm is (ab)used versus small groups or solo people.

2017/03/11 15:38, Telessar:  edited 1x   
Nukafuka:
I never said they had an automatic win :), I said ...50/50 in two rooms, 3-4 rooms was more or less a win for thief.

I don't agree with your charmie logic; we were talking about duel situations so why would a thief ever 'agree' to fight a mage with charmies in a closeable? It's not even applicable. A thief should simply not agree to fight in such a situation or at least make sure that there are allied mobs, or doors or keys that they can use (this is where skill plays an advantage).

Certain things make a thief unique as I have stated many times before (sneaking, backstab, hiding, survivability). Charmies make mages unique. Why should a thief be able to even match a caster + charmie in terms of power. Doesn't make sense at all. As I said, if you want to fight a caster + charmies, you be creative. Lock the charmies up or make the caster flee from charmie while sneaking past by agg mobs. A 'fight' does not have to be a f*Cking HC or hunter fight.

I didn't really find anyone willing to fight me. I guess Adamanta but 20+ levels on me with Sting and rocks and scrolls and is a warscout (beats the f*Ck out of my pure scout). Yeah... but in my experience these are the feasible pk situations as a thief in a closeable since nosneak changes
1) 3-4+ rooms against caster (or warcaster heavily tilted to caster side) without charmies with pierce. Actually theoretically even a 2 room with perfect flees.
2) thief vs. thief
3) any iteration of multiple rooms + multiple mobs +/- keys against a solo/group


2017/03/11 15:46, Telessar:   
This is a good log on how to beat a caster nowadays as a thief:

[submitted link]
The comments are very illuminating and amusing, but make sure to read Bagger and Azazello points (which at least I agree with to an extent though I do think maybe nosneak took it a tad too far).

2017/03/11 15:55, Razoor: 
I think charm is fine for the reasons Elestir points out above. It is a bit overpowered, sure, specially with the enormous versatility mages already have, but at least it promotes soloplaying and we can't have too much of that.

I think thief vs mage is fine if it's 1v1. I think it's really even; if the mage is lucky with quakes/scout unlucky with flees then mage wins, otherwise scout wins. It's a bit sad that it's luckbased, but can't have everything in such a complex game. What makes it a bit unfair is that mage is so much more versatile in general, and the mage will always have the option of simply walking out by rocking the block. So in that sense, I wouldn't mind if thief had a slight advantage.

I disagree Telessar with your #3 - after nosneak it's really hard to deal with groups in mob-filled areas like Moria where previously you had a chance (like that area s e of click, or umuk, or muranog zone). I tried a few times after nosneak change but it's simply not possible anymore. If you get hit even once, due to the fact that you have no armour, you'll be continually spammed and hit by mobs and too low to continue. This is a real source of frustration of mine because it used to be a nice way to fight 1vMore. Now, you just have to run most of the time..

2017/03/11 16:05, Telessar:   
Razoor: Think that's an issue of rocks which I wholeheartedly agree with. I think mage/thief fights nowadays are perfect as you said, but with old sneak it would be the usual rape of casters.

Funny that you bring up the moria thing (Cause you said it in the log I linked from 8 years ago :D). Not sure why, but in sewers and malardil still works fine for me. Who knows.



2017/03/11 16:09, Razoor: 
Honestly I also think removing rocks would be nice, but that's a whole different discussion :) Making people only able to carry one or use one/hour would be nice, though a bit of a crude solution.

Haha, I didn't see the log until now. The post came while I was writing mine :D Well, I stick to my guns 8 years later! The no-abs thing just makes you so fragile, specially after the change that makes mobs target the non-absed parts now...so even worse these days actually.

How about if escape skill gave you a % chance to not get no-sneak? Wouldn't that make perfect sense since the skill is about escaping, after all? 100% escape = no nosneak, 80% gives 80% chance not to get nosneak...etc?

2017/03/11 16:14, Ptui:  edited 1x   
did i tell ya all f off yet, seems no. Nothing to do with my chars, i love thieves/ scouts. Scouts just suck and they suck big and if you playin darkie scout then you must be moron because there isnt worst choise to play, i skip those rare occasions in logs that scout can kill someone without backstab. I must say im kinda drunk and my english isnt best, i really dont care you fucks, and i go on. Darkie scout whit average will 9-10 eat dispels 160-180 hps, blinded in first try by cleric and mage sprays 80-100 hps. And now, if you want a playable scout you take bash, dont know if its that you crosstraining or its a fuckin feature with stab 105% sneak 105% you fail your stabs like seven out of ten.

And now comin back to those weak clerics, clercic is the most powerful char in game/ it can smob solo it can kill things solo and it as mos powerful spell against forces of evil, fuckin dispel.

well all i wanted to say Fuck you and now look what it turned out. I dont blame immos for being morons, i just blame them not listening to players/PKers ( not me).

Sorry and fuck off

2017/03/11 16:36, Nukafuka: 
@Telessar: Unless its a duel set up on skype, you dont have the luxury of knowing what to expect and thats illegal anyhow. Since 9 out of 10 mages use charmies nowadays, and they also get charmies that leave no tracks, its safe to assume they will be using them :) On top of that, they can abuse sleep, but thats a whole new level of low. By your logic, it would mean no thief should ever attempt to fight a mage..and this would only make pvp less likely..no one wants that. Lemme ask about your experience with your mage (+2 eagles), as you also played this recently..how did that work out from a pkill perspective?

A scout has very few situations where it can actually win and of course, you could overcompensate by outskilling, outplaying your enemy and sometimes you might even get a win. Having a skilled player behind the scout though, is no excuse to make them weak, on the contrary, a skilled mage player will pull some amazing shit :).
If you were to take players of around same skill...a scout can only take on another scout, as it is now..vs anything else, its chances of success are slim to none.
Note: you also have the option to team up or stab and flee, but that's beyond this discussion.

@Razoor: Very good point with mobs, with high awareness on mobiles and nosneak, its quite painful to attempt such feats.

2017/03/11 16:41, Lens:   
Lots of interesting ideas, I admit that mine were a bit more extreme but I tend to approach things from a real life or Tolkien angle. I mean real life like what I expect to happen, you would expect getting smashed with a warsword would hurt a bit more then stabbed with a dagger, for instance.

People do need ways to play solo but we also need to make grouping as profitable and interesting as soloing for scouts and mages/clerics. This requires giving each class tools they can use to solo XP and tools to help combat groups. Using Los seems fair, I mean if two people are fighting and wrestling it would be hard to shoot an arrow (or spell) in there from miles away, I think the magic/bow users need to engage (get close to the people fighting) to deal damage to already engaged targets (may need buffs to compensate) and we reduce the max number that can be engaged on one target (should be based on size).

Warriors in particular struggle vs groups, at least that is what I find. Something that has always struck me as odd is that you can have 6 people hitting you but can only hit one back. A swordsman can defend and attack at the same time based on leverage and angles, but how is it that you can parry attacks from 6 people but only hit one? I think it would be good for warriors fighting groups or just playing solo if a roll is applied to every parry for a chance to counter (needs balance but up to 50% is fair if damage is not high)) with an unblockable attack, e.g. masterfully counter striking them in the X (roll based upon %weapon skill and %parry, bonus damage scaling with level but as a low proportion (20%+) of weapon damage). Engaging any target should have some risk.

2017/03/11 16:54, Ptui:   
I wonder, that nosneak and shit that Elestir suggested here or on another poll, after screwing all the last scout players would you play your dear Adamanta? Sorry i dint like half of your ideas, some of them were cool i must admit that. And still dont care.

2017/03/11 17:15, Telessar:  edited 1x   
Nukafuka:
' Since 9 out of 10 mages use charmies nowadays, and they also get charmies that leave no tracks, its safe to assume they will be using them :)...By your logic, it would mean no thief should ever attempt to fight a mage..and this would only make pvp less likely..no one wants that. '

My logic? My logic is totally fine and Razoor agrees. You are just assuming that everyonoe has charmies and that is...your flaw. :)

'A scout has very few situations where it can actually win and of course, you could overcompensate by outskilling, outplaying your enemy and sometimes you might even get a win. Having a skilled player behind the scout though, is no excuse to make them weak, on the contrary, a skilled mage player will pull some amazing shit :).'

Maybe asking players to outplay or outskill your enemy is the way to go :p Or just play warrior..

2017/03/11 17:22, Ptui:   
Tellessar Purge is one of your chars ( i might be mistaken)? Now think how you can outskill some decent playa with that char? Hell i think i can make a stand every fuckin puke i have against zaug scout whos dosent trap you.

2017/03/11 17:39, Nukafuka: 
@Telessar: 'Maybe asking players to outplay or outskill your enemy is the way to go :p Or just play warrior.. ' - Dunno about you, but would rather have a skill based mud then a class/gear based mud. I would rather have a fair chance of fighting a skilled player, and not having to run and look for slow/stupid or afk people to stab, but guess that's just me...Also, telling people to go play warrior when they want scout fixed is one of the worst things you could say :P With same logic i could simply log off and not give a rat's ass about mume and its dwindling player base. You cant honestly expect everyone to play a mage with charm if they want to be competitive in solo pvp..

Agreed with Ptui's challenge :) when will you show us how to correctly play scout? (anything older then a year doesn't count)

2017/03/11 17:51, Telessar:   
Are you p Praska? I did post a log where I beat your orc warrior as pure thief...though maybe you don't consider yourself decent? :P

There are plenty of good players who have killed decent players as pure thieves in the last 8 years. Just have to look up those logs

2017/03/11 17:52, Ptui:   
and screwing Snakr dosent count because he died to my chars plenty that i dont count him as a decent player :) PS. he dosent play eny more as i know.

2017/03/11 17:58, Ptui:  edited 1x   
Im a screwup but please send me that log :) now i do smth stupid i reveal my email. ok that junk email so kabush@hot.ee and as there was said before logs older than a year dosent count. Praska was my first warriors that i started to learn a game so i sucked/died every fuckin corner yes :) was cool btw :) Now destroy me :P still i can take a stand against your darks today with my every single puke:P

correction:puke

2017/03/11 18:08, Nukafuka: 
@Telessar: Kruel's whois has all my chars listed except a few lowbies (that are irelevant to this discussion) :) Praska is not mine, i did not have the honour if dueling you as far as i can think of (if you dont count you suicidal charge in tbad chief) and i do not consider myself to be a good pkiller (im to unpredictable, solo and group, and fuck up to much).

Let me correct your statement: 'There are A FEW good players who have killed decent players as pure thieves in the last 8 years. Just have to look up those logs'. Those logs are very rare, on ER at least. :)

Not calling you a nab or anything, you pulled some amazing shit in the past with your scout. Its just a hunch that i have about how bad your experience with your scout was ever since you came back :P

2017/03/11 18:09, Elestir:   
@Ptui Nfc what you are talking about. Nosneak wasn't my idea. I want it removed as well. Aside of that I mainly want slower but more effective outdoors sneak and faster indoors flush/reveal plus some other (less important) changes/fixes. Look it up for details.

2017/03/11 18:14, Telessar:   
Well I won't say I exactly outskilled you more than you killed yourself hehe..anyhow if you're Grisha then it's in this log from last year.

[submitted link]

2017/03/11 18:27, Ptui:   
@ Elestir, i might misunderstood something you wrote in other polls, thats might be that situation, i kinda loved that idea that in rooms sneak would be more effective, you can do more damage in short distances and quick attack, but if you be lazy and try to be sneaky you fail. And again im sorry for my poor english, who wants a correct and shit he/she can emial me again and i try to answer when im silver :P Nothing personal and i find you a great fucker in that game :)

2017/03/11 18:34, Ptui:  edited 1x   
@Telessar lol, cant comment that tho i remember that one. I dont use hotkeys for closing opening doors. And well i admit you outplayed me there:)

2017/03/11 18:34, Telessar:   
Ah in all fairness though, I did have bash in that log (I keep switching back in forth on that char from purescout to one with bash). So not exactly a purescout at that time :) But same principles I guess?


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