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2014/01/05 12:26, Ortansia:  edited 1x   
Quick answer coz im a bit in hurry

@ Azzazlo actually I'm ok with reducing death penalty which simpler than tweaking with trophy; but as far as I understood the harsh death penalty is something that we can't touch coz it will kill the hardcore spirit of the game :p

So I suggested to keep death penalty as it; but just make some of trophy decay ( not sure what formulas tho) which I think is a good balance, the loss remain harsh, but recovery of lost xp will be faster than what it is now :p therefore it will encourage newbies to carry on

2014/01/05 14:43, Timodeus: 
Azazello: I always also have been bothered by 'Trophy should mean it gets easier, so you get less xp, but it should also be... easier to fight this mob'. So getting more crits or better OB against mobs you have high on your trophy should be there. But... I think trophy is just some sort of OOC-mean to reduce the influx of XP.
If we did that, the bonus should be there, but relatively small. That would also give you an advantage if you fight in areas you 'know', as you know how to deal with the local monsters and your foe might not. If we did that, I think we should also increase the effect of trophy on the xp a bit. Not much, but roughly similar to the bonus you get.

As for streaming: I find that in a way pretty cool. But it is an issue in regard to you giving away crossrace info (if you type who, people who narrate in your stream, if you type where, etc). Yes, you can argue that the cheaters have that crossrace information anyway, but... there's no official statement about that besides 'you must not give crossrace information away'.
I wish we could trust all our players not to abuse it if they got in contact with crossrace info via a stream and voluntarily adhere to the 30-minutes-rule, but... sadly we cannot.

2014/01/05 15:43, Myshkin:   
What.. so EVEN 30min delay is not acceptable? What about 60min or 24hr. Because if I post a log on elvenrunes or youtube 15min after a fight it OBVIOUSLY gives away extremely valuable crossrace information and ruins the game. Or if i call a friend and tell him elestir is on, or if azazello etc play with Pandora groupmanager or if 50% of people who skype are also illegal and should be demoted? jesus christ. I give up, failing to reach any middle ground on issues like these is what restricts mume advertising and it's even worse if this decision is personally against me.

2014/01/05 15:50, Timodeus: 
We have the 30 minutes rule. I never said something different.

2014/01/05 16:06, Myshkin:   
Ah sorry :D Ok cool.

2014/01/05 16:36, Rogon:   
Heh relax on the sugar intake myshkin :)

2014/01/05 18:02, Blondinbella:   
Lol

2014/01/05 20:13, Elestir:   
Azazello: ruined trophy: Such thing does not exists. Getting to 100 is easy, if you have spare time. Dying, or mobdying at level 95 was no a problem at all. Loosing equ was.

If you have enough spare time, it is possible to reach level 100 even by killing rabbits. Does it mean, that getting to level 100 by killing rabbits is a good idea or something that will keep current players (or attact new players to) playing this game?

Mobdying at level 95 is not much of a problem for players like you or me, ie. players who die very rarely and have means to xp fast (with group of friends ready to join our xp/pk sessions). But some players just aren't good enough for high level pk (they will lose more than they will gain) and xp becomes more and more boring and repetitive for them due to filled trophy of mobiles they are capable of killing without taking unreasonable risk. Do we want to send these ppl message that MUME is simply not the right game for them? On the other hand if we are talking about level 95 chars, these players are already hooked and wont quit that easily anyway, but these potential losses may motivate them to avoid risky situations, which is something that makes game more boring in general as it reduces chances that interesting pk situations occur.

Losing eq was problem for you, because you are lazy to smob as you figured that wizkilling weaker enemies is more fun than smobbing for you, but the weaker enemies rarely have the rarest eq so it may take time to get full reeq that way.

Azazello: esp. liked the Tan's remark. :)
As azazello i've been afking in noc for some time, being sort of busy in RL. I only killed 6-7 demon wolves and this orc 2s of GG. With max trophy on demon wolves i was still getting steady 40k/hour.


So this is the kind of gameplay you expect will attract new players to MUME?
That Tan was able to reach level 100 mostly by exping on maxed brutishes is something I almost consider a bug.
IMHO players should be motivated to play with variety and even encouraged to enter risky situations. Not like it is now, be punished for playing risky and rewarded for repetitive risk-free kind of play...

Azazello: What does exist, is is frustration of the player and espectually newbies, who mobdie linkless or afk or simply due to their own lack of knowledge. To make Elestir happy - let's decrease the xp loss on low levels or levels below legend and increase it for levels above legend! ;-)

You forgot that the frustration is dependent on the amount of xp lost and high levels lose significantly more than lowbies. Yet even decreasing the xp loss for low levels would help. But only temporarily. Once given newbie becomes legend and realizes world is not so perfect anymore, he may quit anyway.
Thing is, the loss should be significant (so ppl still value their life and do not play too reckless), but it should not be permanent (so they are not demotivated by realizing that huge amount of time they invested into playing this game was for nothing).

Azazello: On the other hand, you should actually become more efficient in killing the very same creature, if you already killed in 100 times?

Here I agree. I think higher crit chance should be sufficient bonus that would at the same time not become too unbalancing. This idea was actually something I naturally expected when I first learned about trophy and was bit frustrated that it doesn't work like that. (the messages you get - esp. the ones about learning the anatomy of killed creature even directly imply such a thing...)

2014/01/06 10:10, Cohen:   
It is not necessary to narrow the solution just on harsh death penalty, it can be solved form the other side of the coin - that not so experienced player will not die so regularly and they can exp effectively, as it is true that current trophy base allow getting reasonable level with some deaths on the way. The issue with exping is, that even for non newbie, but not someone part of some common exping pack or PK group, that it becomes boring and slow somewhere around level 35-40? (based on personal feeling). So for newbies or a bit experienced players it will be significantly lower.
So for example i always become bored somewhere around and creates some next char, where i can see some progress, but i cannot break the loop - that for char which can be player mostly solo you need to be combo type, which you cannot effectively exp as combo or you have to create pure class type char and then you need group. And as i do not like to follow the well known efficient way like exp orc combo as shaman with shadow and on level 40-50, repract, reroll, retrain - same on white side with charm - it is for me is extremely annoying(to play warrior-caster as caster its first half of live, just to get to level where it starts to work. If i want to play caster i would create it, not a combo) and of course there is one year retire. So i 'end' :-) in situation, that none of standard group leaders usually want my combos into the group - as they do not reliable bash, blind, hit etc and i can't find enough let say over level 26 chars to create own group, so they exp really slow and in case i decide to log for pure char, then it is just waiting for free slot in some exp group, as they are not designed to run mostly alone(if it is not caster with char or stabber). Just to demonstrate how mume is nowaday caste system - i played a few nonknows pure type chars, all fully non-igcognito, like warriors or clerics, visible in their class, all above legend and i didn't get direct ask if i want to joint for anything for a few months.
And now try to image the feeling of some who managed to survive on mume first half a year, get finally to legend, he thinks finally i get somewhere and he ends in situation it is hard to exp alone, penalty for any death is really cruel - equip lost, exp lost and it is not easy to get into some group or form own one.
So if we want to help newcommers to survive their first months(a year) in mume, to be hooked here and we do not want to resign globally on the hardness of reaching exps, we need to somehow force the current player-base to play with them (using them as meat for PK is not counted). So modified ideas like
- used for istary quest, that exping without real newcommes (not someone who just creates new char and have account full of high level chars) in group will be quicker for high level chars then without - it can be implemented that current speed will be reachable just with some newcommers in group, otherwise it will be a bit slower
- lower level chars get more exp in group with high level chars - as at the moment when the exp are divided on caused damage, the low level char do not gain much in group with high level chars and they consume their trophy records in non-effective way.
And i believe we can create much more such ideas how to get newcommers into mume community, because noone really decide to play MUME for beeing and exp here alone, typing who and where and get impression that noone is around.

2014/01/07 01:31, Jones: 
Hello.

Thank you for understanding and fixing the SOD problem.

There is for sure newbie problem for lost exp not finding loot etc. And for some weird reason there is some weird threshold where one wil exp up to level 26 and voila is now experienced player. In my opinion he is still quite newbie and has several annoying things. And anyway a true legend is a level 100 char or in some cases several bright chars who have been dominating the game.


But for that point i will return later. Currently im coming back from long time not playing and finding out several frustrating things, and i will focus a little bit on that.

First of all the reroll and agereset thingie. Now im finding out that while chars are not logged on for ages, like:
Stahl dwa W28 26 mths Bree 35 yrs

They are not in retirement and thus not allowed to have agereset or reroll. First forying is quite annoying but possible, each time it requires like atleast 1 hour of time to get group and right timing. But problem comes from this when you have like 10 chars on your account, it takes minimum like 10 hours to foy them all.
And just for a small but stupid thing, that one day you forgot to retire and just rented instead.

The other thing is reroll thing. As you hit level 26 you need to wait full year before you can get a limited reroll.
i understand that there is a problem that you do not want to fight one dude months along and know that he is a warrior and suddenly get a fireball in to face as he just switched to mage.
For that reason there is a limited reroll function what works pretty well, but why wait for whole year.

As i am currently understanding there is a way too big difference between the character you WANT to play and Character you CAN play.
So to get a bit more of old players who do not have pretty much time anymoe (Surprise!) back to play sometimes the one month period for limited reroll would be pretty nice.


Jones





2014/01/07 03:13, Jones: 
Well it is nice to see, that here is an elvenrunes discussion what is solid constructive and not a single bit of flame. I think we have grown up.

I think that yes Tan proved that well you can exp on anything and trophy system doesnt mean much if you are able to repeat routine tasks in cosmic volume. That gets us back to problem with reincarnate (in RP context Gandalf got reincarnated), as the same players who exp to high levels would get pretty fast jet again to level 100 and then newbies would not face not a level 100 char but soon enough a level 200 with even more powers. But the problem of being a level 100 and finding a function is pretty much a pretty big problem.

The other problem is level 26 player vs level 76 player. For first the poor level 26 char has all disadvantages on his/her side. He does not know how to fight in pk or even flee jet not to speak about tracking someone down or trapping him and getting a kill.

Despite that fact he gets even punished by having a far inferior equipment in defence and offence, and mostly no scrolls and rocks and potions.

And after that the poor newbie has to face challenge facing a 6 real levels higher char what in warrior vs warrior case has 100 more hps, 25 more OB and some hidden defence bonuses aswell.

And now lets say, oh well newbies will group and kill that high level char with a group. But fortune still is not on the newbie side, as poor newbie maybe barely manages to get himself in to group of equally newbie players who now has to face probably 5 level 86 characters :)

And the game is currently built that way that when odds are unfavorable experienced players can just leave. And thus making them even more invincible.

The prime example what i am talking about is in this ancient log.

[submitted link]
At this point i would say, even snowballs have more chance in hell. And if i would had started playing today, understood that i would quit for just pure and plain reason that odds are overwhelmingly outmatched and only college students have the time enough to afford to get also to level 86 from bare total newbie.

With rocks scrolls potions and sheer physical superiority the high level characters are lot less risk free than poor new players.

So what can be solution ?

Briefly i will just list the causes what need to be changed and then discuss it a little bit later.

- The game is not deadly enough.
- Scrolls, Rocks, Potions. (hoarding)
- Real level gain.
- Too easily killable supermobs.

The games has changed from main peak times (99-04) mainly by that that characters have grown in power, weapons have grown in power and many pretty deadly features have been removed from the game thus becoming less deadly. What i can notably list is the approach thing invented because i whined too much about Rogons crew wizkilling my first char (Bök) and a lot of others before i (as being totally newbie) or other newbies could even react. Mochomurka removed the charm overkill, and for some weird reasons someone removed the hold charge and black breath from game, and also poison got nerfed.
at later stages rocks were introduced a and a lot of new scrolls.
and area design system started to introduce large roads and fields instead of bottlenecks.
And also as we were playing from 64k modems the mobdeath was a thing of luck what depended on your luck where you fleed. The mobdeath was pretty furstrating especially after i mobdied like 20 times in row at level 45 due to link. What was very annoying but pretty good feature to avoid high levels.

After those changes level 70 and 80 chars started to appear and the common understanding that level 35 char is ready to pk shifted to level 55 char as able to char.

Now days practically every smob in the game has been soloed except some few rare cases, and can be done mostly with ease and fast ways.

Thus what i am saying is that the game itself has been grown out of balance and at some point, Ilie understood that but whatever the reasons were things did not happen.

So what i suggest is to make changes what do not require totally devastating amount to archieve, but will change mume to a littlebit different game what might be jet more deadly but a lot more fun to play.

As thus far the best combat in pk i have seen is a matched pk, the lesser are levels the more fun it involves. Best pointed out a level 3 puke battling against level 4 bn, no one fleeing both sides fighting.

And the hardest challenge to pk or do mobs or so is around level level 15 to 21 against opponents of the same level.

So currently the max level power is around 32 with +4 levels for spellcasters. The problem is not the firepower or weaponpower against players but against mobs, what makes them die in pretty fast way thus allowing less time to spend exping less time to being in closed rooms, thus avoiding combat.

What i suggest is that to reduce the levelpower from 32 to 25 thus meaning that when you are leevel 100 char, you have the raw power of level 25 char in regard of everything. But what have been very bothering is still lack of practices, and i really suggest that the amount of practices to the level 100 would be a lot higher, so players could also get those rarer spells and skills just for the fun and combination of play. Currently players can afford only the most valuable skills, and any mistake in chioces might be costly.

How it might look like:

The player will archive max level at level 21 not at level 25. thus making the game engine (mobs) far more deadly, moving around far more expensive and death less costly. But allowing far more pracs (as Azazello pointed out), could help players to fiddle with the game and skills.

The first 10 levels would be without mobdeath, next 5 levels with mobdeath as costly as pkdeath. and from level 21 it would go on as it goes currently. Thus reducing mobdeath penaty or pkdeath penalty to not to be so significant in value. And players would mostly gain levels just to get pracs not to get hps and mana.

And also later balance out the rocks scrolls potions to make the game a bit more deadly for advanced players.

Jones/Bök






2014/01/07 09:38, Cohen:  edited 1x   
Azazello made good point about lowering the gap between legend and lev 100 char. There can be many variant of level shift, just another one lowering this 7.5 level gap can be

level 1-10 counts as 1:1,5 nominal level:real levels - 15 levels here
level 11-21 count as not 1:1 - 11 levels here, Total: 26
level 22-25 count as 1:0,5 - 2 levels here, Total 28

7,5 is decrease to 4,5. Also remaining 4,5 can be split in non-linear way - like
level 26-40, count as now - 1:0,1 so 1,5 levels here. Total 29,5
level 41-100 counts as 1:0,05 so 3 levels here. Total 32,5

Total number of practise point stays or can be higher per RL level.

2014/01/08 07:08, Marion:   
Why not simply remove the XP penalty from PK? That way you loose xp when you mobdie and you loose equipment when you pk die?

Opinions?

2014/01/08 10:45, Elestir:   
@Marion Then players would be motivated to xp their friends by suiciding to them. And if they even made a mutual agreement about non-looting (something which is quite common between some players these days), their xping would become ridiculously easy at no cost at all.

2014/01/08 10:52, Marion:   
Oh I forgot it's 2014 and people still cheat. sorry :-P

2014/01/09 19:58, Dracol:   
'Do YOU have what it takes to become powerful enough, skilled enough and respected enough to lead an army of dwarves to defeat the Balrog?
Try the ultimate mastermind challenge, MUME!'

Show that to 1 million people and atleast 1000 of them accepts the challenge.

BUT! Imagine 200 whities and 150 darkies on nonstop. The game would be too small for that.

How many active players do we need?


2014/01/10 10:28, Fieldy: 
Haaah, I really like Dracol's idea :D

2014/01/10 14:36, Timodeus: 
By the way, does anyone know about the state of elvenrunes? Can you get new accounts here and does it work in a 'timely' manner?

If not, we should try to cast 'Resurrection' on the forum on mume.org (as I see it, we basically just need an in the website integrated phpbb-skin to the forum and it can go).
What else would we need? A shoutbox (RR) and a log-section?

2014/01/10 15:21, Andróg:   
Getting new accounts in ER is kind of unpredictable. Some get them instantly, others have to wait 3 months and even then get them only after others (like me) also send specific mails to Axel's email, saying 'hey, dudeX has been waiting for months now, what gives?!?'.

2014/01/11 11:40, Nimfea: 
So, where did all replyes dissapeared in MUDconnectors MUME Promotion thread?

2014/01/11 12:06, Ortansia:   
It still there, nothing disappeared I just checked :)

2017/04/06 21:08, Merarl: 
So was an advertisement ever put up? I'd be up for donating, like we did with the new server.

2017/04/18 14:40, Imago: 
I can't say anything about the advertising, but we can promote MUME on /r/MUD when people are looking for a new game. ;)

2017/04/20 00:01, Merarl: 
Haaah, I really like Dracol's idea :D

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